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The TWO "Rock & Roll" albums

I imagine that most of you are aware of the two different versions of Atco's original release of the "R&R" album. Did Atco simply screw up or what? Quite a few of the tracks have a totally different production and play times. Any ideas as to why this was?


**I imagine that most of you are aware of the two different versions of Atco's original release of the "R&R" album. Did Atco simply screw up or what?**

Hi Phil,

Give yourself some credit! Some Fudge members aren't even aware there are two versions. Vince Martell was asked on another web site about it and he humbly admitted he wasn't aware. There are definite mix differences too. Notably, Street Walkin' Woman(among others) which has, on one version, strong background vocals at the end of each verse and has Vince singing along with his guitar solo. The other version has those vocals all but obliterated. If you listen very closely you can here it, but you could miss it if you didn't know they were there. Stranger yet, a friend of mine purchased his album a week after mine, and we both live in the same town. He has one version, I have the other! The version sans the vocals is the same one on the Psychedelic Sundae CD. My vinyl has the vocals. I wish I knew which one is the rarity!

I'm very excited that I've been told I might expect my first phone call from Vince sometime within the next week or two. This is one question I had already planned to ask him. If he's not aware of both versions, which one does he remember, the version with his vocal along with his solo, or without? I will reply with his answer, if he doesn't see this and reply himself first!

For now at least, The "Mystery" Goes On...

Pete


Hi Pete!

Thanks for the reply. I also bought "R&R" upon release (as an import, as I live in the U.K.). A friend bought the album about a week later, and when he played it some time later, I really thought there was something wrong with his stereo...

As far as I can tell, both versions have the same sleeve, but one of them has "Windmills of your Mind" timed at 6:04 on the label, whilst the other has it at 8:52. Both have it timed at 8:52 on the sleeve.

It is certainly very odd that both versions hit the market at the same time - but if anyone wants to hear some "new" music, get out there and track down the version you don't have!

Cheers!

PHIL RAE (Brighton, U.K.)


Hello again Phil,

I guess that would squelch any idea that one is the "UK" version, and one is a "US" now that both versions were sold in both countries! And, I'd still love to know which one sold the majority of copies and which one is the rarity!

The version I own has both the record and the sleeve timed at 8:52. I think I remember that I've heard a version of Windmills of Your Mind that had the introduction cut off. The long version starts with the drums(snare)... "Rat-tat rat-a-ta-tat Rat-rat-a-ta-tat"(darn keyboards don't have musical notes or I'd chart it!) Mark on B3 comes in with an diminshed chord changing inversions downward, then at last Tim comes in with fuzz bass and Vince on guitar in unison with Mark on a riff. The whole feel is like a swirling tempest(windmill in your mind?). The short version I heard deletes that part and starts with the drums(tom-toms this time) "dum-dump... dum-dump" Then right into the intro to the first verse. Which version do you have?

Did you check out Street Walkin' Woman and listen for those background vocals I mentioned?

In fact, anyone reading this, please email me or post to this thread which version you have. I'd like to find out which version sold more copies!

Rock on!

Pete


Hi Pete & Phil

In fact, anyone reading this, please email me or post to this thread which version you have. I'd like to find out which version sold more copies! <>Phil's on the money. I have 3 copies of R&R on vinyl and all 3 sleeves/jackets say Windmills is 8:52 minutes long.

When I look at the actual record label 2 of the Records say Windmills is 8:52 min's long but the third says it's 6:04 (though the sleeve says it's 8:52.

The Lp is ATCO 33-303 on all 3. The record labels, as Phil noted, give 3 different codes or serial numbers as follows with the two lengths for Windmills: RR (ST-C-691668 PR) = 6:04 min's. RR (ST-C-691668 MO) = 8:52 mins RR (ST-C-691668CTH)=8:52 min's

The 1991 cd reissue of Rock and Roll by Germany's Repertoire Records (REP 4168-WZ) uses the same sleeve/jacket notes as the American LP's, including the error about the Trumpet Fanfare on Lord in the Country. They say the cd track is 8:52 min's but when I play it, it is 6:04 min's long on that track.

Always something new to learn! :-) Peace, Bill


I've been meaning to get in on this...

Isn't their a shortened guitar riff at the beginning of Sreet Walking Woman as well? As I recall there is. On the second (shortened one) I had way back when it went:

DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH D duh duh duh duh duh duh duh d DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH D duh duh duh duh duh - then jumps right into the vocal.

The long one jumps to two clean (without vocals) plays of the same riff that backs up the vocal on the short one, THEN starts the vocal part.

I think I remember this right, that's the description I gave to Vince but he wasn't aware of two versions at all, or differences with the tracks.

I don't even remember the intro to Windmills other than the bass drum part. That first album I bought has long since disappeared.

I can't tell you which is on the Rock & Roll CD because that's still at Aaron's (but with Vince's signature on it!) and he's recording them before returning them to me.

Maybe somebody else knows? It's the CD put out by Repetoire.

Casey


**Isn't their a shortened guitar riff at the beginning of Sreet Walking Woman as well? As I recall there is.**

Yep. I think you're right, but there were other differences too. I haven't heard the "other" version in 20 years, so I don't remember all the differences. It only came to mind when I got Psychedelic Sundae. I remembered being in my old friend Bill's house as a kid and hearing it.

**I don't even remember the intro to Windmills other than the bass drum part. That first album I bought has long since disappeared.**

Well, I guess I have to get my turntable fixed and just send you and Bill copies of it! (Sorry guys, don't want to cheat you out of royalties, but tell ATCO to reissue them!)

Pete


Hi Guys,

I had a listen to my 3 vinyl RR's and none of the Windmills started with the snare drum intro - all began with the toms.. In fact I couldn't tell any difference between the short or long versions despite the labels being different. Maybe I'll time them next time - I just hate trying to play a vinyl LP starting on an inner track, as that's the easiest way to accidently ruin a vinnyl record - even when queing the arm.

The various tracks on Psychedelic Sundae (Rhino cd R2 71154) do contain differences from the LP versions of some of the tracks because Rhino used the "single" Vs. "album" version of the song (not the case with SWW). The last Fudge "single" was Lord in the Country, released 2/3/1970 and it's editing is the poorest of the lot when compared to the LP version.

ATCO used to release two versions of most LP's they produced in the early days (ie Purple & Brown LP Labels).

"The Beat Goes On" was released as Stereo LP #33-237 and as MONO LP #33-237. The only difference on the outer sleeve is one says Stereo at the top of the jacket and one says Mono at the bottom of the Jacket. The liner notes on the inner gatefold sleeve are also different, but the music is the same on both LP's besides varying in stereo or mono.

All my R&R LP labels say "Street Walkin' Woman" is 6:00 min's long. The Psychedelic Sundae says they used the LP and not a "singles" version of SWW. Peace, Bill.


**I had a listen to my 3 vinyl RR's and none of the Windmills started with the snare drum intro - all began with the toms.. In fact I couldn't tell any difference between the short or long versions despite the labels being different.**

Hi Bill!

Don't tell me. I've got something you've never heard? Like I replied to Casey. I'll just have to get my turntable fixed so I can send you a copy! Actually the intro sets the mood for the song. I think it's unbalanced without it.

Pete


Hi Pete,

I've got something you've never heard? Like I replied to Casey. I'll just have to get my turntable fixed so I can send you a copy! Actually the intro sets the mood for the song. I think it's unbalanced without it.<> I'd really like to hear it. I was begining to think the 8 min's was simply a typo on the sleeve and some of the labels. Then again, you have a sharper ear than I do and if you say you've heard it - I believe you. The only song on R&R with a snare intro I can think of is The Church Bells of St. Martins. Peace, Bill.


**I'd really like to hear it. I was begining to think the 8 min's was simply a typo on the sleeve and some of the labels.**

You've got it, Bill! I owe you! Don't need an "ear" to hear this one though, it's a whole section of the intro. I'll get my turntable fixed asap! I just hope you can hear it through the scratches!*g*

**The only song on R&R with a snare intro I can think of is The Church Bells of St. Martins**

Hold the phone! Snare drum at the intro of "Church Bells"? My copy only has the trumpet fanfare, then Mark immediately comes in with "I hear voices..." There is snare drum in the background, but in "Windmills" I mean snare drum all by itself for a couple of bars. It's actually a march beat. Is the background snare drum in the first verse what you're talking about? I hope so! If not, then I'm missing something. I think we should trade tapes maybe and compare, what do you think?

Freezing in May in NJ,

Pete


Hi Pete,

Hold the phone! Snare drum at the intro of "Church Bells"? My copy only has the trumpet fanfare, then Mark immediately comes in with "I hear voices..." There is snare drum in the background, but in "Windmills" I mean snare drum all by itself for a couple of bars. It's actually a march beat. Is the background snare drum in the first verse what you're talking about? I hope so! If not, then I'm missing something. I think we should trade tapes maybe and compare, what do you think?<> LOL! I really said that - stop me before I "think" again! Thanks for catching that!

BTW- you don't owe me anything! It's just been so wonderful for me to meet up with some other Fudge Freaks after all these years and all the information I've received from you folks. I'd never even heard of the Carmine Appice Story before and had long since given up locating the Boomerang or WHile the Whole World was Eating LP's.

Pete, I'd be happy to make you a tape with the 3 vinyl versions of WIndmills and Street Walking WOman I have, along with the Psychedelic Sundae and German cd's of those songs. Like Phil said, the LP labels are different from the jacket covers on Windmills (not on SWW). You can listen to them and provide the forum an evaluation of any differences you hear. Just let me know if you want to go to the trouble of actually evaluating all of them. Stay warm, amigo. Peace, Bill


**You can listen to them and provide the forum an evaluation of any differences you hear. Just let me know if you want to go to the trouble of actually evaluating all of them.**

Trouble? ...what trouble? *VBG*

Pete


I seem to have stirred up a bit of activity with this "R&R" thing!

Ok - I mentioned that a friend had the "second" version of this LP. Well, a few years ago he sold up his vinyl collection, and I bought this from him, and luckily still have it, so I have mint copies of "both" albums. If Atco have lost the masters, they can use them! They could maybe take a note from Sony/Epic and look at what they've done for the excellent SPIRIT/BYRDS re-issues. You could get both versions of "R&R" onto one CD...

Some forensic research has revealed another clue....

The version with 8:52 "Windmills" has ST C 691667 A on the vinyl by the run-out groove. (The flip of the album is the same, except for 691668

The version with 6:04 "Windmills" has ST C 691667 C (and the same, except 691668 on the flip). So it would appear that the shorter version replaced the longer one. However, is there a version between these, with ST C 691667 B ??? And if so, what did those lucky owners get??!!

If you have a version with an 8:52 timing for "Windmills", you should have a completely different, and much longer intro - there is no subletly between the two versions..I expect there might be albums claiming a longer label timing, but which really have the shorter version, but the timings should be pretty accurate.

One way of checking your version of "Street Walking Woman" is to check whether Vinnie's guitar flashes across from one speaker to the other every few bars, during the last few seconds of the song. It does on the "C" version, but not the "A" version. The "C" version appears to be the one used for "Psychedelic Sundae"

It's difficult to tell which version is rarer, as the album was only available as an import in the UK, and very few were sold anyway. The good news is that they cost almost nothing when they do show up, as V.F. are in all honesty not a "collectible" group. Thank God!

Hope this is not getting to be too anally retentive for you!...

Cheers, PHIL RAE (Brighton, U.K.)


Here are a few differences between the two "R&R" albums (I will refer to them as versions "A" or "C") as per my previous message.

"Street Walking Woman" - when the title line is sung for the first time, version C has Vinnie's solo vocal with bags of echo. Version A instead has the band joining in this line with harmony vocals.

"If You Gotta Make a Fool of Somebody" - single tracked guitar solo on version C, no echo on guitar solo at fade-out. Version A has double-tracked guitar solo, and and heavy reverb/delay on solo at fade-out.

"I can't make it alone" - Slightly different mix. Version A has Vinnie's Curtis Mayfield type-playing more to the fore during the first minute or so.

"Lord in the Country" - Version C is the same as on "Psych. Sundae". Version A has reverb on vocals, and is a far better and fuller sounding mix.

Anything else???? I think virtually every track has at least a slightly different mix.

Overall, I think version C is a much harsher sounding album, and I would prefer every version of every song on album A.

Anybody able to contact Adrian Barber to ask what he remembers?


Hi Phil,

Thanks for letting us in on some more differences! As I previously posted, I have only the one version, and it took hearing Psychedelic Sundae to remind me I'd heard the other version almost thirty years ago at my friend's house. By your reckoning, I have version A. However, I've got to throw a monkey wrench into your theory. My label says (ST-C-691667 PR) & (ST-C-691668 PR)! I don't know what these numbers mean, but there is another number at the top of the label which is the same on both sides. That is SD 33-303. ???

Pete


Hi Pete!

I think I might have misled you a little. Those numbers I referred to are etched into the VINYL on the disc itself, just by the run out groove. NOT on the label. See if you have ST C 691667 A there on side one, and ST C 691668 A on side two...If you have the LP with the genuine 8:52 "Windmills", I think you should have..

The SD 33-303 is merely the cat.no. of the LP. This should be constant on all copies. The number you mentioned on the lower part of the label is the matrix number, which should be the number of the original masters. The numbers I gave (on the VINYL) additionally give a further "A" or "C" which, as far as I know, indicates the run of discs which were pressed from that particular master disc. I'm sure you will be aware that in the process of stamping out LP's from a metal master disc, the master disc eventually wears out and causes pressing degradation, and is therefore replaced as needed.

My theory is that the "problems" occurred at this stage, and when a new pressing master disc was called for, some body provided the wrong tapes, either intentionally or otherwise...

Phil


My theory is that the "problems" occurred at this stage, and when a new pressing master disc was called for, some body provided the wrong tapes, either intentionally or otherwise...

If intentional, I wonder who? Harmonies and extended intros are missing, among other stuff. I'd wonder if it was the record company or if a band member had a hand in it? Vince doesn't know about any changes, I wonder if the others do...

Casey


** See if you have ST C 691667 A there on side one, and ST C 691668 A on side two...If you have the LP with the genuine 8:52 "Windmills", I think you should have..**

Hi Phil,

Yes! Those are the numbers etched in the vinyl on my copy. I think your theory about the wrong master replacement may be right. Nothing else I can think of makes any sense. I'd still like to know which one is the rarity. No one has emailed me yet with a response to my post. Most of the Fudge freaks here have both, so you're all no help!(grin)

Pete


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