Index

Music Influenced by The Vanilla Fudge


Around 1968-1970 I thought that the sound of the Fudge was just about perfect....a full range a soundscapes from the gentle (almost cosmic) sound of "The Look Of Love" to the ultra-heavy "Some Velvet Morning" and "Need Love". I collected everything that they recorded...but I also sought out anything that sounded like them! Around that time there seemed to be a lot of groups springing up centered a lead line up of Hammond organ and crunching guitar. In fact when you track back from the seventies you could make a case that the whole British Progressive Rock Movement was heavily influenced, either conciously or not, by the music of the Fudge. All the elements were there... complex, extended arrangements, a symphonic sound palette, and lots of dynamics.

I looked over the records I have collected to try to identify those artists who sounded as if they had similar goals to the Fudge (even if they may not attribute the influence). Surprisingly there weren't that many. Here's the list I came up with. I invite everyone to add anything that they have found that has some sort of a link.

1. Deep Purple - Shades Of Deep Purple - Book Of Taliesyn - Deep Purple - Concerto For Group and Orchestra - and the rest to a lesser degree ( all Harvest in UK, Warner Brothers in US) Jon Lord has stated in an interview that he loved the Mark Stein's organ work and conciously tried to make Deep Purple into the British Vanilla Fudge. These works are more or less sucessful in that goal the comparisons are obvious and most of it is pretty good.

2. Warhorse - Warhorse (Vertigo 6360 015 1970) When Nick Simper left Deep Purple, he took much of the original sound with him. Not great, but worth a listen.

3. Spooky Tooth - It's All About (aka Tobacco Road) - Spooky Two (Island ILPS 9080/9098 uk)(A&M in us) Two of the best of UK's heavy progressive music. Includes almost all of the Fudge's sound - heavy Hammond/Lead Guitar work, extended arrangements, vocal interplay, lots of dynamics...both are great!

4. The Power of Zeus - The Gospel According to Zeus (Rare Earth 1970) I think Fudge fans would realy like this one. It's very heavy, has a psychedelic feel (a bit late in 1970) and is slightly mysterious and unsettling.

5. Merrilee Rush - Reach Out (single) (AGP-107 us BELL 1041 uk) Yes, the same Merrilee Rush that did 'Angel of the Morning'. This track is a Fudge style arrangment of the Four Tops' 'Reach Out(I'll be There)'. Very slow, very intense. This track would fit on Renaissance without much trouble. A Knock-Out!

6. The Outrage - The Letter (single) (Kama Sutra 1969) This is a complete Fudge imitation...and they do it very well. This time it's a very slowed down version of the Box Tops' 'The Letter'. One of the most psychedelic tracks I've ever heard..drenched in Hammond organ and raga style guitar. A classic!

That's enough for now. If there is interest I have a lot more...but for now...does anybody else have anything...?

 


Great Tony!

One of the things we have planned for the site is a page of Fudge reviews and comments from other bands about the Fudge's influence on them. Your list is terrific! If you can come up with quotes and stuff it'd be great!

Casey

 


Hi Tony,

That's a great list you compiled. I really loved the early Deep Purple records (Book of Taiesyn!).

A nice song I think a lot of Fudge fans would enjoy is Funkadelic's epic instrumental, "Maggot Brain". A real masterpiece of psychedelic organ and guitar, despite the grizzly title and album cover. George Clinton, in the early days was partialy influenced by the Fudge, who once loaned him their amplifiers for a gig. Clinton was so impressed by the impact of the powerful amps he decided to move into a rockier and louder groove with that sound. He brilliantly and quickly developed the new amps for his own revolutionary music. Funkadelic was also influenced by what they heard of the Fudge's "gospel harmonies" on such songs as "People Get Ready".

Some other bands who were also influenced by the Fudge were the shortlived Touch, who recorded just one album (self titled) in 1970. Italy's own PFM(Premiata Forneria Marconi), recorded and toured in the US in the mid seventies. They fused jazz, rock and classical music and have said they were strongly influenced by a lot of the Fudge's work. Note: Most of PFM lp's have recently been reissued on cd in Europe.

Another fascinating little crossover was War, back when Eric Burdon sang with them. They did a killer version of the Stone's "Paint it Black" where they put the drums out front. About a decade later Carmine Appice recorded a similar arrangement of that song on his "Rockers" solo album (CBS/Pasha) and in '87 both bands toured together during the Fudge reunion.

I have also been meaning to write and thank you for the really great questions you provided us at the Vince Martell conference. Both you and Stan Vaughn really came through for Vince and I was very impressed with both of your contributions to that event - thanks a lot, guys!

Text written by Tony Allen:

(If there is interest I have a lot more...but for now...does anybody else have anything...?)

I'd very much like to see what you've put together along that line. Please post more when you have the time.

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Bill, the Touch LP (DERAM SML1033 in UK/LONDON COLISEUM DS51004 in USA) is one of my all time favourites..one of the wonders of the modern world. Their epic '75' is a very Fudgy number whilst 'Down at Circe's Place' is a psycedelic benchmark. I think this was UK based DECCA/DERAM's only attempt at signing a US psychedelic band and it failed miserably (commercially) which was a terrible shame, everyone that hears this LP loves it. It was issued on the L.A. based Renaissance label on CD a couple of years ago complete with the group's story told by Don Gallucci (the band's leader) and lots of bonus tracks.

Likewise you hit the nail on the head with PFM. A wonderful group. 'Photos of Ghosts' and 'The World Became the World' I consider amongst the top 10 progressive rock albums. I havn't seen 'The World Became..' on CD...have you seen it?

Another European group with a linkage to the Fudge sound was (the Dutch group) Focus. 'Moving Waves' and 'Hambuger Concerto' also represent high water marks in Progressive Rock, and I think owe a debt to the Fudge sound.

As I mentioned before, I think that the spirit of the Fudge moved to Europe in the form of progressive rock where the intricate arrangements and contrasting sound textures were important. After 1970 it is hard to find an American band that still had these ideals. About the only US band I can think of that combined complex organ/guitar interplay with a (sometimes) sense of spirituality was Santana. The first six or seven LPs from Santana are all strongly recommended.

I havn't heard anything by Funkadelic..I will seek it out.

Tony

 


Hi Tony,

Tonight I saw that RPM records were advertizing a new cd reissue of PFM's "THe World BEcame the World" (= one bonus track) for 19.99. Their site is: http://rpmrecords.com/arrivals.html

This cd is apparently a brand new reissue availible this week.

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Tony,

TExt written by Tony Allen:

(Hi Bill, the Touch LP (DERAM SML1033 in UK/LONDON COLISEUM DS51004 in USA) is one of my all time favourites..one of the wonders of the modern world. Their epic '75' is a very Fudgy number whilst 'Down at Circe's Place' is a psycedelic benchmark. I think this was UK based DECCA/DERAM's only attempt at signing a US psychedelic band and it failed miserably (commercially) which was a terrible shame, everyone that hears this LP loves it. It was issued on the L.A. based Renaissance label on CD a couple of years ago complete with the group's story told by Don Gallucci (the band's leader) and lots of bonus tracks.)

Thanks, Tony. I had that album years ago and lost it in a move. I couldn't remember what label it was on and it's very nice to hear somebody actually reissued it on cd. I really want to replace that record. It was just so great.

TExt by Tony ALlen:

(Likewise you hit the nail on the head with PFM. A wonderful group. 'Photos of Ghosts' and 'The World Became the World' I consider amongst the top 10 progressive rock albums. I havn't seen 'The World Became..' on CD...have you seen it?)

No I haven't. I know RCA of Germany has reissued a lot of their old Italian records on cd including:

Come Ti Va Riva Alla Citta; Per Un AMico; Prime Impressioni; Storia Di Un Minuto; Suanare Subnare; and Ulisse, among others.

For the benefit of others on the forum: when PFM decided to try the US market they obtained Pete Sinfield, the lights man/writer of King Crimson to help translate their Italian lyrics into English with some great results. The Manticore label relelased some of those great albums you mentioned including "The World Became the World"; "Photos of Ghosts" and "Chocolate Kings" back in the 70's. I'm not sure if those have been reissued on cd yet.

TExt by Tony Allen:

(Another European group with a linkage to the Fudge sound was (the Dutch group) Focus. 'Moving Waves' and 'Hambuger Concerto' also represent high water)

They were great! If memory serves, I think Carmine Appice and Tim Bogert appeared on one of Jan Akkerman's earlest solo LP's, as well. It was releleased during the old Cactus days or soon after.

Text by Tony ALlen:

(As I mentioned before, I think that the spirit of the Fudge moved to Europe in the form of progressive rock where the intricate arrangements and contrasting sound textures were important. After 1970 it is hard to find an American band that still had these ideals. About the only US band I can think of that combined complex organ/guitar interplay with a (sometimes) sense of spirituality was Santana. The first six or seven LPs from Santana are all strongly recommended.)

I agree. Here in the US (sigh), the 1970's really became dominated by "corporate rock" and the record companies. The organ just about vanished from the scene except in bands like Santana and Funkadelic. As far as the latter, the one "must hear" track is "Maggot Brain".

I think I've mentioned them before around here, but another band which had some killer organ and arrangements was Britains original Colosseum, with Jon Hiseman and Dave Greenslade. Their album, "Valentyne Suite" was truly great. ALthough strongly jazz influenced, the second side of songs on that allbum employed some great psychedelic organ, guitar and gothic vocal chrouses that sort of reminded me of the Fudge. "Valentyne Suite" was one of my favorite albums from that era.

The recent retro trio, "Niacin" also centers their own jazzz/rock music around the old Hammond B-3 organ. John Novello on the cd credits Mark Stein as one of his chief inspirations. Together with Billy Sheehan on bass and Dennis Chambers on drums, they have released a wonderful little instrumental album I highly recommend.

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Bill, since you were interested in the Touch CD, I dug out my copy to get the details. It might be a bit hard to get..Renaissance Records may have disapeared..they only put out about 6 CDs in 1993-4. Their address is 30 N. Raymond Ave. Suite 212 Pasadena CA 91103 (818 398 7254). The sleeve notes tell the story of how they mutated from pop group 'Don & the Goodtimes' (who had a hit on CBS) to psychedelic wonders 'Touch'. The record was recorded in 1968 but not released till 1969. The recording sessions were visited by Jagger, Grace Slice and Hendrix. But Gallucci refused to tour and interest in the group waned culminating with the group chopping up furniture to keep warm in their rented house after the gas was shut off!

The CD reisue RCD 1001 has 14 minutes of bonus material and a further compilation CD - 'Buried Treasure' RCD 1006 has a further 26 minutes of material, some recorded by a reformed group in 1973.

*********************************************************

Thanks for the info on PFMs 'The World Became the World' I will seek it out!

*********************************************************

Text by Bill Bates:

(They were great! If memory serves, I think Carmine Appice and Tim Bogert appeared on one of Jan Akkerman's earlest solo LP's, as well. It was releleased during the old Cactus days or soon after.)

YOU'RE RIGHT! I'd forgetten all about this connection. I have a copy of this LP 'Tabernakel' (Atlantic SD 7032/ K40522)and I have checked out the sleeve notes. It was recorded in 1973 in New York with Tim and Carmen appearing on about half of the LP. I would have been good to ask Tim about how this came about..maybe we will get a chance if he does another interview (Tim..are you out there?)

********************************************************* Text written by Bill Bates:

(I think I've mentioned them before around here, but another band which had some killer organ and arrangements was Britains original Colosseum, with Jon Hiseman and Dave Greenslade. Their album, "Valentyne Suite" was truly great. ALthough strongly jazz influenced, the second side of songs on that allbum employed some great psychedelic organ, guitar and gothic vocal chrouses that sort of reminded me of the Fudge...)

Once again Bill, you hit the nail on the head. 'Valentyne Suite' (VERTIGO/BRONZE V0-1) is another of my favourites. No need to appologise for the jazz influences, a lot of the best early seventies music had a jazz influence (in the same vein..UK group 'If' put out some great LPs, now available on CD for the first time).

By the way, the original Colloseum reformed earlier this year, and Jon Hiseman has been recording some fabulous Jazz-Rock material with his wife's band 'Barbara Thompson's Pererphanalia' over the last decade.

**********************************************************

I noticed that a Uriah Heep member is appearing on Vince's new CD. The Uriah Heep LPs much of course be added to the list of artists influenced by the Fudge. If you listen to their early LPs there seems to be a concious effort to emulate the sound of the fudge..the instrumentation, the arrangements and the vocal harmonies. As time went by their material became more mainstream heavy metal..but listen to their live LP (Live-January 1973 ISLAND/BRONZE) for a very powerful performance, very much in the Fudge style.

The early LPs are the closest to the Fudge sound: 'Very 'Eavy - Very 'Umble' VERTIGO 6360 006/MERCURY 61294 'Salibury' VERTIGO 6360 028/MERCURY 61319 'Look At Yourself' ISLAND/BRONZE ILPS 9169/MERCURY 614

Tony

 


Hi Tony,

Last night I found PFM had their own web site. See them at:

http://www.secturel.pt/gavdela/pfm/main.html

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Bill,

are you sure this web address is correct. My browser said there was no such domain. The Alta-Vista search engine found lots of interesting references but no web site. It looks like PFM are very popular in Korea!! Tony

 


Hi Tony,

Text by Tony Allen:

(are you sure this web address is correct. My browser said there was no such domain. The Alta-Vista search engine found lots of interesting references but no web site. It looks like PFM are very popular in Korea!!)

Rats! Sorry. I did mistype the URL which IS:

http://www.secturel.pt/gaudela/pfm/main.html

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Bill, I just tried again and got this message back:

DNS Domain 'www.secturel.pt' is invalid: Host not found (authoritative)

Whatsa goin' ona?? Tony

 


Hi Tony,

I'm sorry, I mispelled the first word after www. The PFM site is at:

http://www.sectorel.pt/gaudela/pfm/main.html

 


Got it!! Thanks Bill.

 


Hi Tony,

Text by Tony Allen:

(the Touch CD, I dug out my copy to get the details. It might be a bit hard to get..Renaissance Records may have disapeared..they only put out about 6 CDs in 1993-4. Their address is 30 N. Raymond Ave. Suite 212 Pasadena CA 91103 (818 398 7254). The sleeve notes tell the story of how they mutated from pop group 'Don & the Goodtimes' (who had a hit on CBS) to psychedelic wonders 'Touch'. The record was recorded in 1968 but not released till 1969. The recording sessions were visited by Jagger, Grace Slice and Hendrix. But Gallucci refused to tour and interest in the group waned culminating with the group chopping up furniture to keep warm in their rented house after the gas was shut off!

The CD reisue RCD 1001 has 14 minutes of bonus material and a further compilation CD - 'Buried Treasure' RCD 1006 has a further 26 minutes of material, some recorded by a reformed group in 1973. )

THanks for that background - I'd never heard any of that before. The first Touch LP was one of those overlooked gems shamelessly ignored by the Rock media in those days. After our discussion I had to go hunting for a copy and turned one up at Jerry Bouquard's Califronia ALbums which is still the only place I know with copies of Stein's "Boomerang" and the solo LP's by Bogert and Appice for sale. I look foreward to listening to it again after 20 odd years! :-)

Text by Tony Allen:

(Thanks for the info on PFMs 'The World Became the World' I will seek it out!)

Very welcome! BTW- I noticed that Worldwide CD is also offering that CD at their website.

TExt by Tony Allen:

(I have a copy of this LP 'Tabernakel' (Atlantic SD 7032/ K40522)and I have checked out the sleeve notes. It was recorded in 1973 in New York with Tim and Carmen appearing on about half of the LP. I would have been good to ask Tim about how this came about..maybe we will get a chance if he does another interview (Tim..are you out there?))

LOL! Yeah, that's the problem with interviews. After they're done there's always something you forgot to ask them. Man, it sounds like you have a truly wonderful record collection! Pete Bremy worked his tail off preparing the questions for his interview and when he returns from Switzerland he'll be adding more from it where Tim discusses Cactus and his later career.

The great thing about Pete is that he's a first rate musician himself and can talk to the band on a professional level. The guy finally broke down a few weeks back and sent me a tape of himself performing with his two bands Heaven's Sundae and Retrofix. Pete's got a very soulful voice and his bass licks are somewhere between Tim Bogert, Harvey Brooks, and Paul McCartney. Pete calls his Fender bass: "TP" for "Tim & Paul", his major bass hero's.

TExt by Tony Allen:

(By the way, the original Colloseum reformed earlier this year, and Jon Hiseman has been recording some fabulous Jazz-Rock material with his wife's band 'Barbara Thompson's Pererphanalia' over the last decade.)

I'm really glad to hear that. Do you know if James Litherland (vocals & guitar) was part of the reunion? I really enjoyed his vocals more than Chris Farlowe's (Colosseum's vocalist on their "Live" LP) although Dave Clem Clempson, who replaced Litherland on guitar, was truly fantastic.

Actually I thought Dick Heckstall-Smith had died a long time ago, until he showed up on Jack Bruce's 1993 CD, "Cities of the HEart"- a veritable who's who of the great's played on that one, including: Jon Hiseman, Clem Clempson, the great Gary Moore, Pete Brown, Ginger Baker, and the great organist, Bernie Worrell, among others.

Text by Tony Allen:

(I noticed that a Uriah Heep member is appearing on Vince's new CD. The Uriah Heep LPs much of course be added to the list of artists influenced by the Fudge. If you listen to their early LPs there seems to be a concious effort to emulate the sound of the fudge..the instrumentation, the arrangements and the vocal harmonies. As time went by their material became more mainstream heavy metal..but listen to their live LP (Live-January 1973 ISLAND/BRONZE) for a very powerful performance, very much in the Fudge style.

The early LPs are the closest to the Fudge sound: 'Very 'Eavy - Very 'Umble' VERTIGO 6360 006/MERCURY 61294 'Salibury' VERTIGO 6360 028/MERCURY 61319 'Look At Yourself' ISLAND/BRONZE ILPS 9169/MERCURY 614)

Thanks for the suggestions - I personally needed them! The Webmaster of the Uriah Heep web page has been awfully nice allowing Casey to put a link to the Fudge page on his Heapsters page. Recently he posted a very nice message in our Fudge Guestbook, so everybody be sure and visit the Heepster's page. One good thing is that practically all of URiah Heeps recordings are readily availible and more are being reissued almost monthly.

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Bill,

re: 'Touch'...did you get the CD or an original LP copy (the LPs are VERY rare and quite valuable)?

Text by Bill:

(Man, it sounds like you have a truly wonderful record collection!)

I like to think so, I've been collecting since 1968 and now have most of the psychedelic/progressive/anything-interesting from 1965-1975. I don't have everything yet...I worry about what I am going to do when I have them all!

Text by Bill:

(The great thing about Pete is that he's a first rate musician himself and can talk to the band on a professional level. The guy finally broke down a few weeks back and sent me a tape of himself performing with his two bands Heaven's Sundae and Retrofix. Pete's got a very soulful voice and his bass licks are somewhere between Tim Bogert, Harvey Brooks, and Paul McCartney.)

I great to hear that Pete is also an active musician..I hope he is keeping the Fudge sound going in his music. Maybe we should convince Pete to put he tapes onto the web site so we can all hear them!?

More on Colosseum: The group played again for the first time in 20 years when they all got together for Dave Greenslade's 50th birthday. They convinced Jon Hiseman to do 'just one more tour' in 1994. The results of this tour were recorded and put out on CD - 'Re-Union Concerts 1994' (Intuition/VeraBra vBr 2160) (probably didn't get a US release). It was also released on video. This lead to a further re-union this year with Hiseman,Clempson,Greenslade,Clark, Heckstall-Smith and Farlowe. They have finished recording a new studio LP (Bread And Circuses) which will be released in September and will then undertake a 30+ show tour of Europe.

No , Heckstall-Smith hasn't died, but he did have a triple heart by-pass operation in 1992 which he almost didn't survive (he is now aged 62). (Information from 'Record Collector' magazine May 1997).

Isn't it interesting how the music from 65-75, which everyone thought was transient at the time, has now come to be widely recognised as the creative peak for the century, with most of the musicians from the era considering it their happiest and most creative times.

Just a note about the VeraBra label (on which the Colosseum ReUnion CD was released). This label, based in Germany, is almost a secret record label. Nobody seems to know they exist outside of Germany, but through the 80s they released, to my ears, some of the very best music of the decade. Every CD is very imaginative and often brilliant with artists signed up from around the world. The flavour is most often jazz-rock with world music influences. Some of the artists on this label are: Barbara Thompson's Paraphernalia (with Jon Hiseman), Jon Hiseman's solo CD (mostly drum solos!), Lounge Lizards (from NY), Oregon, Steps Ahead,Don Grolnick,Torsten De Winkel (a great German Jazz-Rock guitarist),Jan Schaffer (Swedish master guitarist (ex Abba!)),Shlomo Bat-Ain(Jazz-Rock from Israel with Larry Coryell),Toshiyuki Honda (Japanese Jazz Rock) and Das Pferd (fierce jazz rock from Germany). ...worth keeping your eyes open for.

all the best Tony.

 


Hi Tony,

TExt by Tony Allen:

(re: 'Touch'...did you get the CD or an original LP copy (the LPs are VERY rare and quite valuable)? )

California Albums had a still sealed copy of the LP (with poster). I couldn't turn up the cd reissue of that lp in my searches. Frankly, I love vinyl and the large cover art that comes with them. :-)

As far as value you know as much as me. I think a lot of it simply has to do with demand and the availibility of the music on a later reissue of the recording. The Touch album is largely unknown today and was for a time, reissued on cd. Early Beatles albums (original issue) have a very high demand although there are more of them around than the Touch LP. I just saw an ad a couple of weeks ago for the LP: "An Evening With Wildman FIscher" on Zappa's Bizarre record label. It's a double LP and in mint- condition and never been reissued on cd. I was surprised to see them only asking 50.00 for it because not many of those LP's exist today and were never made in the record numbers like a BEatle's LP. So I guess it's just simply a question of demand - people want the Beatles more than they want Touch or Wildman Fischer (I wouldn't think of selling my Wildman Fischer LP for 50.00, or any other price!

Text by Tony Allen:

(I like to think so, I've been collecting since 1968 and now have most of the psychedelic/progressive/anything-interesting from 1965-1975. I don't have everything yet...I worry about what I am going to do when I have them all!)

Tony would you consider writing a feature article for the Fudge page about this very subject we've been discussing? All of us have been very impressed with your knowledge. You could illustrate the article with photos of your own album covers or any other sources you might have, as you present all the bands/recordings you are aware of that have been influenced by or are similar to Vanilla Fudge. If you don't have a scanner, you could take snapshot photos of your LP covers and send them to Casey via Her Majesty's Royal Mail to add to your artcle when it's completed. It can be as long or short as you like but we think it'd make a great feature for the Fudge page. What we'd like to see is how the muse or spirit which inspired the Fudge was transmitted or articulated through related groups and their musical recordings over the years. I can't think of anyone who could write that better than yourself. If things are too busy for you to do it right now, we'll be happy to wait until you can do it. Ain't no yuppies around here and we don't believe in deadlines!!! :-) Strictly at your own pace, amigo.

TExt by Tony Allen:

(Maybe we should convince Pete to put he tapes onto the web site so we can all hear them!?)

Great idea! He could do a page with his Vanilla Bremy graphic and an audio file of him singing YKMHO while playing the organ. He really does a great job singing that song. I see over on the Uriah Heep page they have the fans submitting all sorts of original grapgics inspired by Yriah Heep's music. I'd love to see the same thing develop here regarding graphics, writing, and music. "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." Pete's version of YKMHO would be a real credit to the page.

Text by Tony Allen:

(1994. The results of this tour were recorded and put out on CD - 'Re-Union Concerts 1994' (Intuition/VeraBra vBr 2160) (probably didn't get a US release). It was also released on video.)

Fantastic!

Text by Tony Allen:

(They have finished recording a new studio LP (Bread And Circuses) which will be released in September and will then undertake a 30+ show tour of Europe.)

Thank you for informing me of that. I'll definitely keep my eye pealed for both cd's.

Text by Tony Allen:

(Just a note about the VeraBra label (on which the Colosseum ReUnion CD was released). This label, based in Germany, is almost a secret record label. Nobody seems to know they exist outside of Germany, but through the 80s they released, to my ears, some of the very best music of the decade. Every CD is very imaginative and often brilliant with artists signed up from around the world. )

Great information! I really hope you are willing and free to write the feature article about the Fudge's influences on other artists and recorded works in the latter half of the twentieth century.

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Bill,

An original mint copy of 'Touch' with poster..fabulous. If you don't mind me asking..what did you pay for it...it is valued at around 30 Pounds in the UK (where there is a very strong collectors market, especially for anything on the DERAM label).

I am completely unaware of Wildman Fisher..tell me about him.

Text by Bill: (Tony would you consider writing a feature article for the Fudge page about this very subject we've been discussing? )

I would really love to write an article on this subject. Too much has been written on psychedelia centering on the flower power aspects and the evolution from garage-punk in 1965-6. The heavy side of psychedelia rarely gets past Hendrix..and if Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly get mentioned at all they are usually only footnotes. Give me a bit of time and I'll see what I can come up with. I think I can get the use of a scanner...I'll ask around.

More for the list of groups influenced by the Fudge:

1) Yes - The first 2 Yes albums seemed to have a Fudgey feel to them (Yes-Atlantic 8243/588 190(uk) and Time and a Word-Atlantic 8272/2400 006(uk)). They feature a heavy Hammond/Lead guitar front line and increasing complex arrangements (nothing compared to what they would be doing in a few years time). Although their sound changed dramatically after these LPs, I think that the seed had been sewn...

2) Barclay James Harvest - Barclay James Harvest (Harvest 770/Sire 97026)

- Once Again (Harvest 788/Sire 4904)

These 2 LPs are essential listening for progressive rock fans and owe a lot to the Fudge philosophy, except in this case the Hammond organ has been replaced by mellotron and full orchestra. They feature complex symphonic rock arrangements with stunning dynamics. (Both on a 2 on 1 CD - Beat Goes On BGO-152).

Thats all for now. Tony

 


Hi Tony,

Text by Tony Allen:

(An original mint copy of 'Touch' with poster..fabulous. If you don't mind me asking..what did you pay for it...it is valued at around 30 Pounds in the UK (where there is a very strong collectors market, especially for anything on the DERAM label).

Wow, that's an amazing valuation. I'm paying 25.00 plus 5.00 (US$) for the LP. Check out Jerry Bouquard's "California Albums" at:

calalbums@earthlink.net

Text by Tony ALlen:

(I am completely unaware of Wildman Fisher..tell me about him.)

Wildman (Larry) Fischer was discovered by Frank Zappa selling his songs for a dime on LA's Sunset Strip in 1968. Wildman was an ex-mental patient (paranoid schizophrenic) who could not play any instruments and sang his songs acapella on street corners.

"An Evening With Wildman Fischer" (Bizarre Label #6332) was a bouble album produced and recorded by Frank Zappa in 1968. The album includes tracks recorded on the Strip of Larry selling and singing his songs. Other sides include studio recordings of Larry by himself or backed by the Mothers of Invention.

After the one album Fischer disapeared into legend and largely from the public's memory. In the 1980's RHino records located Larry and produced two new albums of Larry in the late 70's/early 80's. I only have RHino's second (1984) Wildman Fischer LP, "Nothing Scary" (Rhino Records #RNLP 022)

The first album on the Bizarre label is the best. It's one of those records that sounds like a bad joke the first time you hear it but when you listen to it more carefully it really sort of moves you. Fischer's mental illness was no gag or con and he sings about his experiences in a very honest and sometimes disturbing manner.

TExt by Tony ALlen:

I would really love to write an article on this subject. Too much has been written on psychedelia centering on the flower power aspects and the evolution from garage-punk in 1965-6. The heavy side of psychedelia rarely gets past Hendrix..and if Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly get mentioned at all they are usually only footnotes. Give me a bit of time and I'll see what I can come up with. )

Exactly our own sentiments. I'm so glad you want to do it - thank you! Take all the time you need.

Peace,Bill

 


Hi Bill and Tony,

I'm back from Europe. A bittersweet statement! Holy Smokes, this thread is one of the best I've seen yet out here! Bill, you're swelling my head, cut it out!:-) You two are walking encyclopedias of Fudge knowledge and influence. As a musician, I've tried to analyze the Fudge more on the technical end, by learning and dissecting the music itself over the years. I've got to admit, I'm gaining a wealth of knowledge from you two guys, as well as from Stan too and some others. This is fantastic! There can be no question that this site is by far the most definitive reference for Vanilla Fudge information on the planet and it's only 8 months old! We still have a long way to go, but that's what makes it great. We can all enjoy working together. There were a lot of things I read on this thread I wanted to jump in on, I just hope I remember them all!

As far as putting Heaven's Sundae's YKMHO cover out here on the site, I don't know. I think there might be some copyright problems there and the last thing I'd want to do is cause a problem. That cover was meant as a tribute, not competition, but I'm sure you realize that. I'm still working on a better mix anyway. I don't mean to get defensive, Bill, but that wasn't one of my better vocals. I have to work real hard to try to sing in Mark's style! (my range is baritone!):-) Thanks for the compliments anyway. I do often though sit at my B3 and play short medleys of Mark's main themes for practice. I've occasionally thought about putting it on tape if I can come up with a smooth transition from piece to piece. If I do, maybe I can get around copyrights by just sending out a few freebies to site regulars. But ask Bill, it took forever just to get the HS tape out!

Tony, I'd be interested too in Tim and Carmine's participation with Jan Akkerman, but it was your idea. Why don't you write Tim yourself and ask him how it came about? He has email now at TimBogert@AOL.com. Or you can get the link from his page, or the main Fudge page if you forget where this is. If he responds to you, let us know and post his answer.

As far as Fudge influenced groups, I'm surprised you didn't mention a group as obvious as Procul Harum. If you consider the British as being somewhat "reserved" and apply that to Whiter Shade of Pale which highlights organ instead of lead guitar and has Stein type sound and some smears(holding down groups of adjacent keys and sliding your hand up or down the keyboard for effect) which Mark was famous for and utilized frequently. I thought it a strange twist that while Mark Stein often borrowed licks from the classics such as The King and I , The Peer Gynt Suite and others, that with Whiter Shade of Pale it was the lyrics that were classicaly influenced. Another heavy organ piece is Kaleidoscope, a favorite of mine, on the same album.

An interesting note about John Lord of Deep Purple. I once read in an interview that he deliberately used a Hammond X-77 model instead of a B3 which has a slightly different, though distinctly Hammond, sound so that he would not be confused with Mark Stein! Lord is another legendary "Hammondist" whom I have great respect for. His solo on Hush is a classic and another favorite of mine.

Lastly, it is known The Beatles were big Fudge fans. Ever listen to close to Wild Honey Pie on the White Album ? No organ, which may make this seem elusive, but listen to the drums, guitar and vocals. It almost sounds like a Vanilla Fudge parody.

Pete

 


Hi Pete, Good to have you along, I thought this was turning into a Bill and Tony duet session.

(As far as Fudge influenced groups, I'm surprised you didn't mention a group as obvious as Procul Harum. If you consider the British as being somewhat "reserved" and apply that to Whiter Shade of Pale which highlights organ instead of lead guitar and has Stein type sound and some smears(holding down groups of adjacent keys and sliding your hand up or down the keyboard for effect) which Mark was famous for and utilized frequently. )

I am really glad you mentioned Procol Harum because when I went through my list of records to select those that I though were influenced by the Fudge, they were there. But on reflection I thought that this was more likely a case of Parallel Evolution. I don't think either group influenced each other..I think that they came up with their styles quite independently. But they sure have a lot in common. Both groups pioneered the introduction of classical influences in rock music.Both groups pioneered making the keyboard the dominant instrument in a rock group (in Procol's case having piano and organ simultaneously). Both invoked a sence of the mystical (eg almost all of Renaissance and 'Repent Walpurgis' and 'At the Gates of Cerdes' from Procol Harum (1st LP)). Both groups had master lead guitarists (Robin Trower in Procol Harum) who could play very powerful solos over dense Hammond organ backing. Both groups were and still are my favorite US and UK groups respectively.

I still rate 'Renaissance' as the greatest rock LP ever and Procol's 'Shine On Brightly' 2nd! Just a couple of days ago I found Matthew Fisher's web site (the original organist with Procol), which is a quirky self-made site, where he taks about what he is doing, what Procol is doing (nothing at the moment) and how his Hammond M102 got stolen and the new LP he is working on. He has an email address. I just might send him a note and ask him what he thought of the Fudge and if he thinks they influenced him in any way. He adds a note saying that he isn't interested in "the Moody Blues or Pink Floyd" type progressive rock..his interests are in classical music and 60s pop like the Kinks...I wonder if he will write back?

I was interested to hear that Vince is doing a version of Whiter Shade of Pale on his LP. This makes me a bit nervous. To me this is like re-doing the Mona Lisa. Anyway it shows that Vince must have liked Procol.

Text by Pete: (An interesting note about John Lord of Deep Purple. I once read in an interview that he deliberately used a Hammond X-77 model instead of a B3 which has a slightly different, though distinctly Hammond, sound so that he would not be confused with Mark Stein! Lord is another legendary "Hammondist" whom I have great respect for. His solo on Hush is a classic and another favorite of mine.)

It's a pity I don't remember where I read the interview where Jon Lord praised Mark Stein, but he sure did and it pleased me greatly that he acknowledged the influence. He also commented that he particulary liked the tone colours that Mark got out of the draw-bars. 'Hush' is a wonderful song. I loved the very primitive sounding organ and guitar work in the instrumental section.

Text by Pete: (Lastly, it is known The Beatles were big Fudge fans. Ever listen to close to Wild Honey Pie on the White Album ? No organ, which may make this seem elusive, but listen to the drums, guitar and vocals. It almost sounds like a Vanilla Fudge parody.)

You know, I never would have thought that the Beatles were influenced by the Fudge even though George was an acknowledged fan. I 'll have to have another listen to 'Honey Pie' ( was it Wild Honey Pie?? 'Wild Honey' was a Beach Boy's song...I'll have a look when I get home).

I will drop a note to Tim Bogert with the question about Jan Akkerman. I will also ask him what he thought of Procol Harum.

Tony.

 


Tony wrote:

Hi Pete, Good to have you along, I thought this was turning into a Bill and Tony duet session.

Thanks, Tony, I'd have jumped in sooner, but I just returned from a two week vacation in Europe. I hope others will get in on this too!

But on reflection I thought that this was more likely a case of Parallel Evolution. I don't think either group influenced each other..I think that they came up with their styles quite independently.

You may be right, Tony, although, quite honestly, I wasn't approaching it from the point of influence as much as similar styles. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I lost my original copy of Procul Harum's first(probably lent it and didn't get it back), but if memory serves me, the album was released somewhere around the same time as the Fudge's debut album.

It's a pity I don't remember where I read the interview where Jon Lord praised Mark Stein, but he sure did and it pleased me greatly that he acknowledged the influence.

I get the impression you think that the statement about the organ model was meant in a negative way. Quite the contrary. John Lord did praise Mark in that interview. He was influenced by Mark so much that that was the reason for the different selection of the organ model. He wanted something to be different. I don't have a copy of the article I'm talking about, and it's been so long I don't remember exactly what was said. I'm not even sure that he even mentioned Mark by name, but he said he didn't want to be confused with "another very popular Hammond organist" or something like that. I took it to mean he had to do something to establish an identity for himself. Again, I don't remember exactly what he said, but at the time I remember thinking that I knew he was referring to Mark Stein.

I've noticed that in early Deep Purple music, the instruments' sound is almost the opposite to Vanilla Fudge, like they all did that. The guitar sound is thin as opposed to Vinny's heavy sound and the drums have a "small", light jazzy tuning as opposed to Carmine's deeper, larger drum sound. I notice it especially on Book of Talesyn.

Oh, and The Beatles. It's Wild Honey Pie, please, not Honey Pie! Wow, I need to make that clear!:-) Wild Honey Pie is a really short tongue-in-cheek(I think) sort of tune. In my opinion, I've always thought it a parody on Vanilla Fudge. I thought The Beatles were having a little fun. If it's true, I consider it flattering to the Fudge as The Beatles, obviously, really didn't "copy" anybody. Speaking of Honey Pie(the boop-boop-be-doop tune), in one of the last verses, I thought Paul McCartney was toying with a Tiny Tim(remember him?) impression a little bit!

I believe it's always been George Harrison quoted as being the Fudge fan, but according to Tim Bogert, they all came to see the Fudge a few times while on tour in Europe.

Pete

 


Hi Pete,

Pete writes:

(I lost my original copy of Procul Harum's first(probably lent it and didn't get it back), but if memory serves me, the album was released somewhere around the same time as the Fudge's debut album. )

To the best that I can determine Vanilla Fudge was released in July 1967 about 2 months after 'A Whiter Shade of Pale' single but the Procol Harum LP (titled 'A Whiter Shade of Pale' in the US but simply 'Procol Harum' in UK) was not released until January 1968. The delay was caused largely by the fact that when they recorded A Whiter Shade.. they didn't actually have a group and very few songs written. Both 'Renaissance' and Procol's 'Shine On Brightly' were released around December 1968 making that month (for me) the peak of rock creativity. (By the way 'Procul' is correct latin but 'Procol' was the spelling suggested by Keith Reid (the lyricist)..Keith seems to have a slightly 'different' view on everything). You should acquire a new copy of the Procol LPs later this year when, as Phil Rae says, they will be reissued with additional tracks.

No Pete, I didn't misinterpret what you said about John Lord's comments about his Hammond model, I agree that John Lord was simply seeking an individual sound after having emulated Mark in his early years. I have read through most of the material on the Deep Purple site but alas no mention of Fudge except in the Ian Paice interview. I agree that the sound on the early Deep Purpe LPs is much lighter than the Fudge sound, especially Richie Blackmore's guitar is quite thin..not to worry, he made up for it in latter years. But what I do like about the early Deep Purple sound is the glorious Hammond sound which is allowed to dominate (not so in later years).

Pete writes:

(Oh, and The Beatles. It's Wild Honey Pie, please, not Honey Pie! Wow, I need to make that clear!:-) )

..of course you are right...Sorry...:-( I'm afraid I am much better at the obscure stuff than the more popular music. I am a specialist in UNpopular music.

(I thought Paul McCartney was toying with a Tiny Tim(remember him?) impression a little bit!)

Poor old Tiny Tim..I beleive he died earlier this year. He was always considered somthing of a novelty act but in interviews he comes across more as a serious student of pre-sixies music with a desire to rekindle interest in older musical styles.

..The Beatles...it appears that all of the Beatles were interested in the heavier music of the late sixties..Cream Hendrix and the Fudge. I wonder if this contributed to some of the tensions within the group since after 1967 the evolution of pop/rock was very rapid and the Beatles were no longer seen as the primary innovators. They were probably having trouble coming to grips with the changing styles and their fan's expectations of innovative but not too experimental or heavy pop music. The songs on 'Yellow Submarine'..Hey Bulldog and Northern Song are probably closer to the music they wanted to play at the time. In a recent interview Paul McCartney complained that John was always seen as the innovator and he was seen as the wimpy pop song writer. Paul says that he was interested in Avant Gard and experimental music while John often couldn't be bothered expanding his horizons. How perceptions often differ from the reality.

Tony

 


Hi Tony,

Excuse my interuption. Pete's been pretty busy this week and I'm not sure when he'll be free to answer you. Our man was actually in the studio with Vince Martell on Sunday and attended a couple of Vince's gig's Fri and Sat! Pete's taking pictures and getting the latest on Vince's record and current activities. So we hope to have some killer features from him soon!

text by Tony Allen:

(No Pete, I didn't misinterpret what you said about John Lord's comments about his Hammond model, I agree that John Lord was simply seeking an individual sound after having emulated Mark in his early years. I have read through most of the material on the Deep Purple site but alas no mention of Fudge except in the Ian Paice interview. I agree that the sound on the early Deep Purpe LPs is much lighter than the Fudge sound, especially Richie Blackmore's guitar is quite thin..not to worry, he made up for it in latter years. But what I do like about the early Deep Purple sound is the glorious Hammond sound which is allowed to dominate (not so in later years). )

In the MOJO article on the Fudge this month (the one Phil Ray pointed out) they quote Jon Lord as saying about the origin of Deep Purple: "We were going to be the English Vanilla Fudge".

A fascinating recording released on a 1992 Deep Purple Bootleg called "Odd Ditties: Back Door Possiblities"(ARF Germany 1992, 1 cd) is a demo tape Deep Purple recorded of the Beatles' "Long an Wining Road". The song featured Mark Stein on lead vocals. See Ingo Fengler's list of Deep Purple bootlegs at:

www.uni-ulm.de/~ifengler/purple/oddittie.htm

text by Tony Allen:

(Poor old Tiny Tim..I beleive he died earlier this year. He was always considered somthing of a novelty act but in interviews he comes across more as a serious student of pre-sixies music with a desire to rekindle interest in older musical styles.)

Your very correct about Tiny Tim as a serious musician.

There's a great web site for Tiny Tim:

http://www.ice.net/~ponk/tinytim.htm

I only have Tim's first LP, "God Bless Tiny Tim". I was surprised to see how much material Tim has recorded in the past ten years.

Peace, Bill

 


Hi Bill,

I'm sure that Mark Stein issued a 45 of "The Long & Winding Road" in the UK during the mid to late 70's. Furthermore, I'm almost 100% sure that it was released on Phil Spector's own label, and probably also produced by him. I'm convinced that I saw a copy during that era, and for some unknown reason, failed to buy it - probably thinking that it might be some other "Mark Stein" I posted a note about this on the forum a while ago, but got no feedback. Anybody have any clues on this. I'm sure this isn't a "myth"!....

Cheers, Phil Rae

 


Hi Phil,

I definitely recall your mentioning Mark Steins euro single and I've been keeping an eye pealed for it or the Deep Purple demo he did with Jon Lord on the bootleg cd we discussed. I still haven't had any luck locating either recording (sigh).

Thanks to you I've also been keeping an eye peeled for some of the VF's Italian singles with picture covers. Last week I located and ordered a copy of the Fudge's Italian single, "Windmills of Your Mind". I've also placed a bid in an auction on a Japanese Fudge EP of YKMHO which also has a picture cover, but I won't know if I've won it until October.

In regards to Mark Steins discography I've also been looking more closely at some of the recent Tommy Bolin Band cd's which have been released in the past several years. I think we need to add to Mark's discography:

1. "THe Tommy Bolin Band Live at Northern Lights Recording Studio" (Sept 1976 recroding for WCCBN radio in Maynard Mass., USA)

2. "The Tommy Bolin Band Live at Ebbets FIeld 1976"

Both albums feature Mark Stein on keyboards and backing vocals like he provided in Tommy Bolin's studio LP, "Private Eyes".

BTW- speaking of rarities, Jonothan Gatarz, one of our members in Pennsylvania, last week sent me photos of his Korean version of the VF's Near the Begining LP (Sam Wha Label). I scanned in the images and Casey said he'll eventually get it up on the discography page. It's really an interesting variation on the cover art of that album and I think you guys will get as much of a kick out of seeing it as I did. :-)

Peace, Bill

 


While on the Deep Purple subject, I haven't seen the Stein quote but here's one from Ian Paice re Carmine:

"In about '66 or '67, Vanilla Fudge happened with Carmine [Appice], and I don't think there's any good rock player who Carmine hasn't influenced to some degree. John Bonham was greatly influenced by Carmine, although he never actually admitted it. I certainly am, and people like Cozy Powell are..."

He goes on to say how Carmine influenced him if you'd like to take a read from the Deep Purple site (an excellent site!).

Casey

 


Pete,

I don't know a bout the Beatles not copying anybody - "Here Comes the Sun King" is pretty much the same as Fleetwood Mac's "Albatross" for the most part!! I'm surprised they got away with that one..(and we won't mention George's "My Sweet Lord"..)

Procol Harum were an outstanding live act. I think I ended up seeing them live more times than any other band - and I never saw a bad show by them, despite the many varying line-ups. I agree totally about V.F. "Renaisance" and Procol's "Shine on Brightly" I wore out my copies of both of them to such an extent that the vinyl changed to a grey colour!! The CD releases of the first four Procol albums are pretty good, although I hear that they are up for remastering, with extra tracks too. An interesting Procol oddity from this period is the German Polydor 1968 pic. sleeve 45 of "Rambling on"/"Quite Rightly So", which feature different versions to the LP. Cat.No. is 59175, but I'm afraid it has been deleted for about 28 years now!!

I read somewhere that Procol were influenced most by Bob Dylan, and that The Band were themselves influenced by Procol Harum, and this makes sense. The second LP by The Band was another classic in this vein. More traditional, and certainly no recited "poetry", but great use of organ/piano, and Garth Hudson is something else!! There was a special about The Band on UK TV a couple of weeks ago, and I could not believe the way Garth Hudson can play. He really is totally unique...

Phil

 


Hi Phil,

your words are music to my ears! I have never found any other person who also thought that "Renaissance" and "Shine On Brightly" were two of the greatest LPs ever. I notice that you are from UK. If the music press is anything to go on, Vanilla Fudge were (are) either ridiculed or ignored in the UK (they have never appeared on Record Collector magazine's top 500 collectable artists). What has been your experience with the attitude of the media to Vanilla Fudge both then and now?

I listened again to "Shine On Brightly" over the weekend and it still works! The final 10 minutes brought tears to my eyes..simply magnificent!

Text by Phil..

(I read somewhere that Procol were influenced most by Bob Dylan, and that The Band were themselves influenced by Procol Harum, and this makes sense. )

The story that I read said that Gary Brooker & Keith Reid attended a concert in 1966 where Dylan was playing with (future) members of The Band. Brooker was impressed with the sound of piano PLUS organ and thought it would make a great sound for his compositions. The missing ingredient was still to come...the classical influence. This element seems to have been introduced by Matthew Fisher with his very UN-R&B style Hammond organ playing.

Just to digress a bit..'A Whiter Shade of Pale' was written by Gary Brooker and Keith Reid using a theme written by Bach...that's what we were always told... ...right?....WRONG! In an interview done earlier this year the truth has come out for the first time. Matthew Fisher says that the organ theme for 'Whiter Shade' was in fact written by him and is IN THE STYLE of Bach but is in reality an original theme.

Now the bad news...

"I was a bit slow to catch on to that. It didn't hit me until I was up at Essex Music one day and they had the sheet music. And,um,I looked at the sheet music and there was my organ solo written out, note for note.And I suddenly thought,hang on, I wrote that. I wasn't until then that it occurred to me."

Imagine being the originator of a major part of one of the most significant songs of the 20th century and not getting any credit for it (let alone any cash)! It appears that his bitterness over this and other credits lead to him wanting to leave the group after 'Shine On Brightly' (he stayed for 'A Salty Dog' only because they allowed him to produce it), thus ending one of the great sounds of the era. Very sad!

I have never been much of a Dylan fan, but it is impossible to deny the influence he has had on the development of music since the early 60s.

Tony

 


Hi Tony,

For me, Dylan hit it with three albums - Blonde on Blonde, Bringing it all back Home, and (particularly) Highway 61 Revisited. Listen to "Ballad of a Thin Man" on this record, and then listen to "A Christmas Camel" on the first Procol LP!!...

I went to buy an old Fender guitar from a guy in a villge near me in Sussex recently, and the guy selling it had bought his house from Robin Trower a while ago. It seems that Trower had to go back to Southend to live. Apparently his finances are not as sound as they once were. Pretty sad that he should now make a living out of producing records for the likes of Bryan Ferry, when he's one of the best blues/rock players of the past thirty years....

PHIL

 


Hi Pete,

Sorry, I wasn't thinking about the copyright issue. Heaven only knows who owns the rights to YKMHO by Dozier, Holland, Dozier, these days.

Procol Harum is an excellent comparison to the Fudge. Both bands (ie Pigeons & Procol Harum) founded in the same year (1966) and issued their first LP in the same year (1967). It might be interesting to know if the two bands had any influence on each other as contemporaries or shared any concert bills in the US or UK.

I've heard Jon Lord of Deep Purple was strongly influenced by Mark Stein and the Fudge but I didn't know what kind of organ he used.

I'll have to go back and listen to Wild Honey Pie and refresh my memory.

Great to have you back! :-)

Peace, Bill

 


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